Justus Pang
United States
Houston
Texas
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Let me start with a disclaimer that I am a big fan of the designer Sean Ross because of his awesome "Recommended/Best for Two" Geeklists and his active participation on BGG, so I will readily admit that if I did not enjoy Haggis I would have just kept my mouth shut. That said, I really, really did not expect to appreciate this game. As a fan of climbing games, particularly Tien Len, I am a little protective of this mechanic, so I get skeptical when the designer adds an extra suit, faceup wild cards, funky bombs, and awkward scoring. Furthermore I tried playing it 2P with my girlfriend who was half asleep and we both came away with a very lackluster impression. But yesterday, I got a chance to play Haggis with a couple every experienced gamers and I was very impressed. It is not a perfect game (for the record, I don't believe Tichu is either), but it is definitely a fun game, especially for gamers.
I won't go too deep into gameplay, but here's a quick intro. The game is played with a custom five-suited deck of good looking, well designed cards printed on fairly nice stock, (a step below casino quality but fine for heavy use). As a climbing game the primary goal is to shed your cards with a secondary goal of picking up point cards during the play. A 3P game will involve all five suits of cards (each ranked 2 through 10) with each player is given a JQK which are wild cards which are kept face up (2P games involve only four suits). There are a variety of bombs, and each player actually starts with at least one available (using the JQK). For scoring, the 3,5,7 and 9 are worth 1pt each while Jack is worth 2pts, Queen worth 3pts, and King worth 5pts. When you shed of your last card you immediately score 5X points for every card in your opponent's hand (in a 3P game whoever has more cards) and the last place player also gives his cards in hand to player who went out first. Each player keeps and scores the cards they captured during play. There is also bonus scoring if someone declares a bet that they'll go out first. The game ends once someone suprasses 350 points.
So what did I think of the game? Well lets start with the criticisms. I still haven't got over my initial lackluster 2P experience and even though I like the 3P game, I am very disappointed that the 2P game involves taking out one of the suits -- which diminishes one of the more distinctive aspects of the game, the ease of mixed 3579 bombs and the mind twister of having to keep track of that fifth suit. Furthermore, I still find the scoring more awkward than it should be. I'm not sure how to resolve it, but I just feel that there must be a better way because we just kept finding ourselves digging around for missing point cards (moreso than Tichu). But the primary reason I don't plan on buying the game is because I feel that Haggis, like Tichu, are great gamers' games but I don't think either game is particularly suited for casual play (my personal sweet spot). Just as I still prefer Tien Len to Tichu, I prefer Dou Dizhu as a lighter 3P climbing card game which just needs a standard deck and doesn't involve nearly as much explanation. Unfortunately I fear that non-gamers may not get past the rough initial plays of Haggis to get to the zone where it really starts to shine.
So why do I think its a great gamers' game? First, there is a huge tension between getting rid of cards as quickly as possible while keeping the big boppers in hand so you can go out smoothly. Having cut my teeth on Tien Len, I have very strong instincts to hold back during play, letting the other players deplete their hands and then slamming them right before they can go out. Unfortunately with this strategy, if you misjudge your opponents in this game, they can pick up a ton of points when they go out - and even if you win, you just don't capture that many bonus points. So that makes me play a bit more dangerously than I generally like making it an exciting brain tickler - I almost never end my hand with a weak set in normal climbing games, but I found myself regularly stuck with a crap in Haggis. Also, the plethora of wild cards and bombs in the game adds a nicely balanced wildness to the gameplay -- you can't just chart a path and roll the opponents when you get a great hand. Because the game does not have the partnership and passing of Tichu, Haggis produces its gamery complexity by giving each player three wild cards and the ability to make bombs with those cards. And in a 3P game with 5 suits the mixed 3579 combo is fairly common, but because that combo is weaker than any of the face card bombs, its also not nearly as strong as one would wish. I really like how the fifth suit forces you to think differently in keeping track of cards. And finally, because two players can try to sit on a player and keep him from that magic 350 threshold, there are some interesting temporary partnership dynamics that come and go in a course of a 3P game.
And this is what makes Haggis interesting to me, I like the multiple dilemmas that Sean has embedded in the game. The dilemma that if you use your wilds you'll break up your bombs, and if you use bombs you're burning cruicial wildcards for the sets you just won the right to play. The dilemma that you can see what wild cards/bombs your opponents have...and they can see yours too. The dilemma that the awesome hidden bomb in your hand often breaks up some sweet sets you'd have otherwise. The dilemma that keeping your cards can let you unleash some awesome combos, but because everyone starts with wilds and bombs, an opponent can often suddenly dump their last few cards before you've made your move. The dilemma that you're buddies with one guy now, and those points you let him take might just let him sneak past both of you. And with all these dilemmas, Haggis becomes a dynamic game and a great fun play. While I really think that the game could use a little polishing at the edges, its 99% of the way there, so if you're a fan of traditional card games (and especially if you like them a little meatier), you won't regret trying it out.
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Dave Laing
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
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I haven't picked up Haggis yet, although I very definitely will - and that's based on the fun I've had trying the 2 player version with a regular deck of cards. I've been holding back on pre-ordering from the next printing because I've been worried about how it plays with 3. Your review has convinced me to make the order.
As a note on the 2 player - and which may not apply to you, especially since you're already well versed in a game in the same family - it took quite a few goes before we saw how much scope there was to use the wilds effectively. Once we got used to that it went from fairly random to incredibly awesome pretty quickly, and we seem to be finding more tactics and strategy every time we sit down to play it. So I can't wait to try it with 3 
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Justus Pang
United States
Houston
Texas
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Thanks for the compliments. Let me say that it took me quite several rounds before figuring out how to use the wilds myself. One of my big epiphanies during the game was when I realized I could use them for staircases (ie 2green, 3green, 3 orange, wild) - unfortunately that epiphany hit me on the last hand of the third (and last) game! I really disliked the concept of open wild cards while reading the rules, but its genius because they are so handy to use but its also so important to leave two of them on the table to keep the opponent(s) honest.
Even though your bgg collection indicates that you might not be as ideologically tied to abstract perfect information games as your avatar might imply  , let me warn you that the reason I most likely liked the 3P version is because there is a bit more randomness than with a 2P version. I find the implied (spoken and unspoken) diplomacy in the 3P game pretty interesting. There were a few times when I've let a my immediate predecessor's winning set float in the assumption that the next guy will do the bombing...and a couple times it backfired! I do think there are more "I don't know what to do let's roll the dice" moments than in Tichu. It may well be my inexperience in Haggis, but I definitely think part of it is due to an inherent fluidness to this game.
Thanks again for the response, you've convinced me to give the 2P version another chance since I didn't really give it a fair shot. I have played Guan Pai a few times which is a decent 2P climbing game but a good 2P climbing game is an elusive beast.
dave_au wrote: I haven't picked up Haggis yet, although I very definitely will - and that's based on the fun I've had trying the 2 player version with a regular deck of cards. I've been holding back on pre-ordering from the next printing because I've been worried about how it plays with 3. Your review has convinced me to make the order. As a note on the 2 player - and which may not apply to you, especially since you're already well versed in a game in the same family - it took quite a few goes before we saw how much scope there was to use the wilds effectively. Once we got used to that it went from fairly random to incredibly awesome pretty quickly, and we seem to be finding more tactics and strategy every time we sit down to play it. So I can't wait to try it with 3
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Dave Laing
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
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If you do give the 2 player version another try I'd like to know what you think of it when compared with Guan Pai - if there's something better out there I'd love to give it a try. Although I'm not sure I'll be able to convince my main 2 player Haggis partner to make the switch
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Jonathan Kandell
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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dave_au wrote: If you do give the 2 player version another try I'd like to know what you think of it when compared with Guan Pai - if there's something better out there I'd love to give it a try. Although I'm not sure I'll be able to convince my main 2 player Haggis partner to make the switch :)
2p climbing games are inherently limited compared to 4p, since you can't card count in the same way. (You can reduce the deck, of course, but it's not the same.) And they tend to "shed" too fast, and the ending becomes too melodramatic, ending more with a whimper than a bang. The wild dramatic moments aren't there as often with 2. These games become more heady; but Tien Den is not Piquet, if you know what I mean.
Nonetheless, traditional climbing games can be adapted to where they're passable. But no one should judge the genre by 2p, even refined versions like Haggis.
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John Drake
United States
Midlothian
Virginia
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I've managed to get the opportunity to play this game quite a bit in the last couple of days, as it is a holiday... and I found teaching this game not difficult. We aren't talking gamers here... we are talking family who thinks settlers is too complex.
Granted, I don't use the same terminology... I will say straight instead of sequence/run and stop to make sure they understand how multiple large pairs need to be consecutive and of the same suits. But everyone seems to start understanding not only the rules... but the necessary strategy in a few rounds of game play. Certainly easier than tichu.
I honestly think this is a great gateway game because playing cards are very familiar and there is a lot of depth to this game.
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Posted Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:27 am
