Sarah
United States Indiana
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Obviously it is not deemed appropriate (by some users) on the main gaming page.
So can we talk about it here? Or not? As my partner and I continue to develop games, I would honestly like to be reflective about how our games are representing people and how they can increase diversity in the gaming community. So if folks have ideas about making that a conscious part of game design, I would love to have a civil discussion about it.
My original post: Hi folks,
What do you think game designers can do to grow and diversify the gaming community?
What games do you think do a good job with regards to issues of gender, race, orientation, socioeconomic class, etc?
What do you think we as gamers can do to be open and inviting to all peoples?
If your answer to any of these is: "I don't care," "everything's fine," "it's not relevant," "games are just for fun and fun can't change the world" "it's not my responsibility if people don't feel welcome in my gaming community"--please just stay off this thread instead of creating a ruckus. These issues ARE important to me, in my leisure activities as well as in everything else I do.
As someone interested in growing the gaming community and in game development, I'd actually like to have a thoughtful discussion about social justice and gaming. Not a discussion about assigning blame, but a discussion focused on positive efforts for change.
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Cracky McCracken
United States Ohio
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A little piece of advice new user. Don't post something right on the main page of a website as busy as BGG and than tell users they can't reply to it if they don't agree with you.
Among other things it's kind of rude. Not very inclusive of you is it? (oh the irony) 
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Sarah
United States Indiana
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As a new user, I appreciate advice. And I certainly realize that people can post where they choose to. I also wanted to point out that if they are not interested, they don't have to participate. And that I truly want to have a discussion with folks who have thought about the issue (not an argument with folks who disagree).
I hoped that stating it politely upfront might help the discourse keep civil, as people might think "Okay, she's not trying to be a jerk and stir the pot. I can just walk away."
There are some interesting and helpful comments on the thread, so I appreciate that.
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Kevin Eastwood
United States Dracut Massachusetts
Chaos is a ladder
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Don't take this the wrong way, but what makes you think the gaming community isn't diverse? I play games with people of all ethnicities, gender, and sexual orientation every single month. I'm sure that I'm not an exception.
IMO gaming is supposed to be fun - if there's a social learning to it so much the better. Games like CO2 make me thing about the impact we have on the environment, while other games like Freedom make me realize where we've come from and the struggles had from slavery. Kolejka provides me insight into the difficulties in Poland during the end of the Communist era. Games like Labyrinth and Andean Abyss make me see the difficult choices we face when trying to regain a sense of control over the world. All of the aforementioned games can be played for leisure, or an individual can try to take something away from them larger than the game themselves. I'm sure the designers had this in mind as well, but it's up to the individuals involved to decide what they want to see.
Finally, a game called Hand in Hand is something that I backed from KS and is something that you may want to look into.
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Sarah
United States Indiana
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Thanks, Kevin, those are excellent games for me to look for!
In my personal experience, it has seemed to me that many gaming communities are less diverse than the area as a whole. This may not be true everywhere and I do understand that the gaming community is not one monolithic thing.
Also, someone just told me that I'm not supposed to start two threads on the same topic in two different places. I didn't know that. Sorry. I am sure that, being new, there are many things I don't know.
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Derek H
South Africa Pretoria Gauteng
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Cracky wrote: A little piece of advice new user. Don't post something right on the main page of a website as busy as BGG and than tell users they can't reply to it if they don't agree with you.
Among other things it's kind of rude. Actually, its your response that seems a little rude. The OP can ask anything in any way she likes; the community is usually quick to respond in such a way as to dampen rude, profane or generally abusive posts (which the OP's is not). The only reason to interject something off-topic would be to try and derail it...
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
United States Astoria New York
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Cracky wrote: A little piece of advice new user. Don't post something right on the main page of a website as busy as BGG and than tell users they can't reply to it if they don't agree with you. Among other things it's kind of rude. Not very inclusive of you is it? (oh the irony)  It's not rude to ask people to respond positively.
And irony is you posting your response here instead of the original thread. I won't help you derail this one any further.
***
As to the topic at hand, I do think there is a lot of unexamined sexism and racism in the gaming industry. There are of course plenty of thoughtful individual gamers, but overall the problems are glaring (though unfortunately in line with much of the rest of popular culture). When discussing this issue, it is important to focus on the institutional nature of sexism and racism, and not individual prejudice.
An example of what I mean is the frequent misuse of the Bechdel Test when discussing movies. It is often brought to bear to excoriate a particular movie (or to show its uselessness as a barometer by pointing out an otherwise terrible movie passes it). What the Bechdel Test does that is more important, however is show the the movie industry as a whole tends to fail the test - it is the industry itself that is tested and individual results are not the focus.
So, back to games. The kind of success I would seek is not to have diversity represented in all ways in every game, but rather to have diversity represented when looking at the industry as a whole. Is it good to have the choice of playing an otherwise identical male or female version of a character in a game? Of course. Even better would be to also have games where female characters are over-represented, and not necessarily in "traditional" (read: patriarchal) roles.
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Derek H
South Africa Pretoria Gauteng
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Tricksie wrote: In my personal experience, it has seemed to me that many gaming communities are less diverse than the area as a whole. This may not be true everywhere and I do understand that the gaming community is not one monolithic thing. I agree with that. In my country, gamers tend to be white. I'm not sure if that is because the games that are available reflect Western cultures and ideas; or because the other, local cultures are not really interested in modern boardgames. Games like Catan, for example, do not really depict people in racially-specific way, and many of the activities (building houses or villages) are common to many cultures. I have wondered before if "retheming" some of those games to depict local places, landscapes and features would attract a wider audience??
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Sarah
United States Indiana
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I think that theme can be part of it. One of the issues, however, would be doing theme in a culturally-appropriate, knowledgeable way. Not in a culturally-appropriating, patronizing way.
I also completely agree that we need to be talking on a systemic/industry level and that issues in gaming are closely related to issues in the media.
Some people have contributed thoughtful comments on the original thread, which I really appreciate. Right now, it seemed like the backlash was immediate and it's been gotten under control and people are being more thoughtful. I have really been trying to keep it on that level.
I guess another thought is this: just because *I* am a gamer and I think gaming is awesome doesn't mean that everyone is or should be a gamer. So, perhaps I'm being presumptuous in even wanting to broaden gaming as a hobby/community. If that makes sense at all? (I'm thinking about cases where white feminists step in to tell "others" what needs to be "fixed" in their cultures.)
I guess the goal is to be welcoming and representative of all peoples, regardless of whether all peoples decide to game.
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Emma
United States Finger Lakes New York
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eastwoodk wrote: Don't take this the wrong way, but what makes you think the gaming community isn't diverse? I play games with people of all ethnicities, gender, and sexual orientation every single month. I'm sure that I'm not an exception.
BGG is what makes people think that, and only because there is a vocal minority of insensitive people here. That's disheartening. Luckily, it doesn't reflect much of real board game culture. My experience in the real world is that board gamers are some of the most accepting, nicest, easygoing people I've ever met.
The biggest "cultural" division in gaming is economic class. Gaming is an expensive hobby, and income gaps (at least in my country) are widening while wages fall across the board (for all those but the tip top, who are surely not interested in board games). When you start sieving by income, you're going to lose diversity.
Class inequality is the most worthy aspect of "social justice". I'm not sure what boardgaming, a prohibitively expensive hobby, can do for this particularly (other than having the very respectable virtue of being easily played with friends of any income level).
Boardgaming has an important application in education, as an avenue for children to learn about socialization, math, etc. I'm speaking about the games we play, not games for children specifically. In this way I think it is great for us to play complex and interesting games as groups: we desperately need to strengthen bonds with one another in a society that pushes us to isolate, and boardgames are a great way to do this.
I think the best games aren't games that explicitly deal with race, gender, class, etc, but that give us the tools to interact with people different. Hanabi is my favorite game for this reason. In it, you are forced to rely on those you are playing with, moreso than in any other cooperative game because you are helpless without them. It is that kind of altered perception that I think demonstrates the power of games, rather than a game that just remembers to include diverse characters in its art.
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Chief EGG Head
United States
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Cherubim and Kimaloé are 2 games I can think of as examples. They were designed for charities I think. Hm on rereading your post they may not be examples of you meant
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Mindy Basi
United States Urbana Illinois
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Othila wrote: eastwoodk wrote: Don't take this the wrong way, but what makes you think the gaming community isn't diverse? I play games with people of all ethnicities, gender, and sexual orientation every single month. I'm sure that I'm not an exception. BGG is what makes people think that, and only because there is a vocal minority of insensitive people here. That's disheartening. Luckily, it doesn't reflect much of real board game culture. My experience in the real world is that board gamers are some of the most accepting, nicest, easygoing people I've ever met. The biggest "cultural" division in gaming is economic class. Gaming is an expensive hobby, and income gaps (at least in my country) are widening while wages fall across the board (for all those but the tip top, who are surely not interested in board games). When you start sieving by income, you're going to lose diversity. Class inequality is the most worthy aspect of "social justice". I'm not sure what boardgaming, a prohibitively expensive hobby, can do for this particularly (other than having the very respectable virtue of being easily played with friends of any income level). Boardgaming has an important application in education, as an avenue for children to learn about socialization, math, etc. I'm speaking about the games we play, not games for children specifically. In this way I think it is great for us to play complex and interesting games as groups: we desperately need to strengthen bonds with one another in a society that pushes us to isolate, and boardgames are a great way to do this. I think the best games aren't games that explicitly deal with race, gender, class, etc, but that give us the tools to interact with people different. Hanabi is my favorite game for this reason. In it, you are forced to rely on those you are playing with, moreso than in any other cooperative game because you are helpless without them. It is that kind of altered perception that I think demonstrates the power of games, rather than a game that just remembers to include diverse characters in its art.
A very thoughtful post. The other thread has sort of gone haywire, anyway, probably no thanks to me! I agree, if you don't have a degree of education (to be predisposed to wanting to think on your leisure time, to do something intellectual), or at least a cultural predisposition to doing intellectual activities for enjoyment, the time to do leisure activities, and the money to buy games, board gaming is not going to appeal to you.
Frankly, most people would rather watch television, it's passive, takes no effort, and certainly doesn't require thinking. It also doesn't require you to interact with others the way board games do, which is probably the appeal of video games, since that gives you a lot of degrees of separation, even in an MMO.
I want to say that one of my biggest problems for inclusivity for women is theme -- Letters to Whitechapel really bothers me. I think having fun playing a character committing crimes against women is really offputting. I haven't played it, so maybe I misudnerstand, but there are so many other better themes for games that don't involve heinous crimes against women that actually happened. Put that's just my particular soapbox. It does point to the inherent sexism in games, though, that this would be an acceptable theme for all players, including young girls if the posts to BGG have any truth to them.
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Lori
United States Durham North Carolina
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Othila wrote: boardgaming, a prohibitively expensive hobby
I disagree. In fact, I think of affordability as a strength of boardgaming. Sure, games are not cheap and a lot of us do spend heaps of money. But assuming you live in a not-too-remote area that has a decent gaming scene, then if you can spare some leisure time and afford some transportation, that's all you really need.
You don't have to go to cons; many gamers (the majority, I would think?) never do.
You don't have to have the kind of house where you can host gaming; there will be gaming at game stores, other people's houses, and all sorts of other community venues.
And you don't actually have to own games. Many of the people you meet gaming will have extensive collections. And if the event is one to which multiple people may bring games, in my experience most people will do so and there will be far more games present than could possibly be played. Most people are eager to play the games they have bought, so a person who isn't trying to put forward something they've brought, but is willing to play what others have brought, is always welcome.
Also, if you do own games, you don't need to have a thousand of them, they don't need to be bought new, and you don't need to constantly churn your collection. A $50 boardgame is expensive, but it's awesome value if you play it 50 times. Of course you can't experience that value unless you can front the $50.
It might be prohibitively expensive to go to Essen, join the Cult of the New, and have an enormous game collection. But it's much less expensive to have a very small collection of favorite games which you can get many hours and years of play out of. And it's even less expensive to go to local game events/groups and play other people's games. I realize this isn't an option everywhere, but in my area and many others, it would be easy to get in all the gaming you wanted without having to spend anything beyond, as I said, transportation.
Of course there are some people who cannot afford even this, but for any hobby there's a level of poverty at which you can't do it. Nothing's completely free. If nothing else, there's the cost of your leisure time to engage in a hobby, which you don't have if you're working multiple jobs around the clock to keep your household afloat. But I think boardgaming can be pretty economical.
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Emma
United States Finger Lakes New York
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I also skipped Whitechapel because of the theme. Too gross. Perfectly happy to play games about violent history 2 de Mayo, but glorification of serial killers is a bit much.
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
United States North Pole Alaska
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On one hand the most popular game EVER started out as a political statement. It is a horrible game. It is the biggest selling game every year for most of a century. That game is Monopoly.
When Magie designed The Landlord Game (retitled Monopoly when Parker Bros. stole it) she was making a political point of how land owners got richer and richer on the backs of the poor (in a nutshell). For the era she did a good job of giving the game a very non-political-statement feel.
The trick is to make your point without being preachy, unless you are ok with a novelty game. Even Puerto Rico took a lot of flak over "colonists" which were clearly slaves.
Magie stumbled on the right combination. However, very few people think they just learned economic theory after playing the game. As I understand your premise, I don't think it can be done outside of the novelty game market.
If it can be done, look to Monopoly as the template, not for gameplay but for the balance between making a point and making the game fun.
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Emma
United States Finger Lakes New York
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ellephai wrote: I disagree. In fact, I think of affordability as a strength of boardgaming. Sure, games are not cheap and a lot of us do spend heaps of money. But assuming you live in a not-too-remote area that has a decent gaming scene, then if you can spare some leisure time and afford some transportation, that's all you really need.
True, it's not the most expensive hobby per hour of fun gained per person (as I mentioned in the virtue of games being able to be played and shared freely). Compared to videogaming, skiing, or doing drugs, it's cheap. But it's still a hobby primarily targeted at people with wads of disposable income (which results in a loss of diversity based on class inequality).
You're right that boardgaming has the potential to appeal to a much wider audience because it is quite affordable at the core (one small initial cost compared to other comparable entertainment costs that can then be shared).
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Mindy Basi
United States Urbana Illinois
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The thing is, you can go to board game nights at a local game store and play other people's games for free ... so it is accessible even if you have no disposable income to fund a game collection.
And frankly, there are many good games for $10-$20, which is the cost of one lunch out.
I think it's more a class thing that you would choose to do it as a hobby, since it's considered intellectual which still translates to "nerdy" -- Will Wheaton, after all, was on a science fiction television show and the Big Bang Theory is about nerdy professors, which is where board games are getting the most exposure to main stream culture as far as I can tell. Felicia Day is a mainstream actress now, but still mostly plays nerds (Eureka, The Guild).
Lori already said much of this above, so I agree with her.
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Russ Williams
Poland Wrocław Dolny Śląsk
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Quote: But it's still a hobby primarily targeted at people with wads of disposable income (which results in a loss of diversity based on class inequality). It's perhaps worth noting that the boardgaming hobby is large and diverse, and it doesn't have to be a consumerist activity of frequently buying hot new published euro/adventure/wargame products, even though that's the prominent facet of boardgaming which one sees at BGG.
If that's what is meant by "the hobby" for purposes of this thread, then okay, I agree that it's not a great hobby for poor people who don't have friends with games...
...But there are plenty of games (e.g. abstract strategy games and traditional card games) which don't require any notable expenditure of cash; they're playable with equipment you already own (a standard deck of cards; a chess set, a checkers set, etc.) Some gamers are also into free print-and-play boardgames of various types/genres (solitaire, euros, abstracts, wargames, adventure, etc).
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Andy Leighton
England Peterborough Unspecified
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ellephai wrote: Othila wrote: boardgaming, a prohibitively expensive hobby I disagree. In fact, I think of affordability as a strength of boardgaming. Sure, games are not cheap and a lot of us do spend heaps of money. But assuming you live in a not-too-remote area that has a decent gaming scene, then if you can spare some leisure time and afford some transportation, that's all you really need. You don't have to go to cons; many gamers (the majority, I would think?) never do. You don't have to have the kind of house where you can host gaming; there will be gaming at game stores, other people's houses, and all sorts of other community venues. And you don't actually have to own games. Many of the people you meet gaming will have extensive collections.
All of which is true, but not all of that is immediately visible from outside the hobby.
Quote: It might be prohibitively expensive to go to Essen, join the Cult of the New, and have an enormous game collection. But it's much less expensive to have a very small collection of favorite games which you can get many hours and years of play out of. And it's even less expensive to go to local game events/groups and play other people's games. I realize this isn't an option everywhere, but in my area and many others, it would be easy to get in all the gaming you wanted without having to spend anything beyond, as I said, transportation.
Again true, but visibility is key. It also presupposes an already extant interest in games. Do people really turn up not having played anything at all before? Finally there is the big effect of social inertia - some people feel that board games (like some other things) is a hobby which people like them do not do. They know no-one in their circle who plays boardgames.
Quote: Of course there are some people who cannot afford even this, but for any hobby there's a level of poverty at which you can't do it.
Very few people in the west are that poor. Yes, if you look at packaged games. But if you look at abstract strategy games - many of these have rules that are published for free and the components are an old draughts-board and some draughts and coloured stones (or other markers). Of course these are even less visible to the non-enlightened, and it is also harder to find real-life opponents.
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Julia
We have dragged Reason from her Throne and set in her place the Empress of Dreams [liber Endvra]
Amor, sola lex
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andyl wrote: Very few people in the west are that poor. Yes, if you look at packaged games. But if you look at abstract strategy games - many of these have rules that are published for free and the components are an old draughts-board and some draughts and coloured stones (or other markers). Of course these are even less visible to the non-enlightened, and it is also harder to find real-life opponents. Additionally, if I may add my voice to Andy's, Print and Play is a great option in case someone has not money to blow on games, and there are some truly little gems available for P'n'P.
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Lori
United States Durham North Carolina
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Othila wrote: a hobby primarily targeted at people with wads of disposable income
This word you used made me stop and think. Targeted? Is a hobby targeted? This is a very different concept that if you had said "primarily appeals to." Who is targeting whom, and for what purpose? I think the use of the passive voice here turns our attention away from who is doing the targeting. And my answer to that would be the gaming industry, the makers and sellers of games.
Of course they would target the people with "wads of disposable income." If you own a game store, do you want the customer who's a rich Cult of the New member and drops hundreds in your store every month, or the customer who mostly plays their friends' games, but bought a $50 game once in your store five years ago which they still really enjoy? Of course the former, and that doesn't mean you're evil and nefarious so much as that if all your customers were the second, you'd be out of business.
In any activity, those who make money off it will "target" it to those who have money to spend on it. But that consumer relationship is only one perspective, and doesn't have to be the totality of what the activity means to the diverse people engaged in it.
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Jacq L
Wanna see me make a beastly girl vamoose?
poof
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Mmm, I just want to point out that even local "board game nights" are a little more expensive for some than they might appear on the surface.
Roughly half of the boardgaming events I attend have unwritten age brackets. New babies are welcome, as are children over about 14-15. But in between those ages are when you have to start balancing the costs of the "free" board game night with the cost of child care.
And, as an aside and an extension, with the "cost" of missing work. When I was doing shift-work I made it to the weekly game night once every few months or so, because it was always hit n' miss whether I'd be scheduled on Wednesday night, and if someone called in sick that was extra money in my empty pockets whereas game night was just one night of fun.
I already talked about accessibility a lot (maybe too much) in the other thread, but I'll just mention that I can count on one hand the number of accessible board game groups I've been to over 15 years on-and-off in 6 different cities.
And when I say "count on one hand" I mean "exactly one." ONE space that was wheelchair accessible, not just on the outside but to the whole gaming space, with large enough bathrooms and doorways to accommodate a standard chair, and a table high enough to play on.
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Laura Blachek
United States charlotte hall Maryland
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Tricksie wrote:
What games do you think do a good job with regards to issues of gender, race, orientation, socioeconomic class, etc?
What do you think we as gamers can do to be open and inviting to all peoples?
Hmm... other than having games available with themes and art that are unlikely to bother certain groups, I think the second question is better worded as what can we _as people_ do to be open and inviting to all peoples? I tend to be put off by gamers that are openly derogatory about games someone suggests playing. And saying that, I do make a face when someone suggests Munchkin or Cranium or some other game I personally dislike.
As a person who has always felt to be on the periphery of every group I've ever been involved in, i think whether or not someone is welcome is as much to to with whether they feel they will be welcomed as much how careful people people are to _be_ welcoming.
For the first question: if you're interested in games with an aspect of social commentary, I might suggest reading about Train or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarPower_%28game%29. The first would be outright repellent as a mass produced game, but I think works as a piece of art meant to unsettle and bother those who play it. (please, let's not derail into the merits or lack of this game) The second isn't even in the BGG database, since it's more of a sociological experiment than a real game.
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Emma
United States Finger Lakes New York
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ellephai wrote: But that consumer relationship is only one perspective, and doesn't have to be the totality of what the activity means to the diverse people engaged in it.
Of course it doesn't have to be (and isn't) the totality of the modern boardgaming experience. This exemplified by the games Russ is talking about (and their lasting following from before our "hobby" even existed to all the modern games playable with chess and go boards), by pnp games as Julia mentioned, and by the sharing of games.
However, it's about more than game stores targeting consumers. It's about the designers/publishers themselves, and the *kinds* of games that are published, and (as Andy points out) the visibility for the hobby that is generated. Someone without the kind of disposable income to be part of the target audience for an flgs or boardgame publisher is unlikely to seek out designer boardgaming as a hobby. I was merely pointing out that this contributes to the lack of diversity in the modern designer aspect of our hobby, and not implying evil on the part of the flgs. I also think it is our greatest challenge as an evolving hobby (and love to see widely distributed print and play games because of it).
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Tricksie wrote: What games do you think do a good job with regards to issues of gender, race, orientation, socioeconomic class, etc? Regarding these issues, what games in the BGG top 100 do you consider problematic?
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